People page for aries

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People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
Hi,

In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.

http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People

Alasdair

--
Alasdair Nottingham
[hidden email]
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Re: People page for aries

Guillaume Nodet
Awesome, thx a lot.
I think one thing that may help would be to add a column and list
people that are members of the Incubator PMC.  Those are really the
ones that have binding votes while Aries is incubating.  This can be
done by looking at http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html or
the list of members from the IPMC:

incubator-pmc=aadamchik,aaron,adc,akarasulu,antelder,antoine,ate,bdelacretaz,ben,berndf,blautenb,bloritsch,bodewig,brett,brianm,bsnyder,carnold,chinthaka,cliffs,clr,coar,craigmcc,crossley,cutting,cziegeler,danese,dashorst,davidw,deepal,dims,dirkx,dkulp,ekoneil,elecharny,erikabele,farra,fitz,geirm,gianugo,gmcdonald,gnodet,gsingers,gstein,hammant,henning,hogstrom,husted,ianh,jeremias,jerenkrantz,jgenender,jholmes,jim,joes,jstrachan,jta,jukka,jvanzyl,kevan,leosimons,lresende,martinc,matzew,morgand,mrdon,mriou,mvdb,mwomack,niallp,niclas,noel,pquerna,proyal,psteitz,pzf,rdonkin,reinhard,rgardler,rgoers,rhillegas,rolandw,rooneg,rubys,sanjiva,sbailliez,sgala,snoopdave,stoddard,susie,sylvain,tcurdt,tfischer,twl,upayavira,wglass,wrowe,wsmoak,yoavs

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:40, Alasdair Nottingham
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
> the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
> think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
> some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
> and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.
>
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People
>
> Alasdair
>
> --
> Alasdair Nottingham
> [hidden email]
>



--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
Hi,

I'll try to fold that in, but I doubt I'll get it done today.

I know I am new to working on an apache project but I am a little
surprised to learn that only Incubator PMC members have binding votes
on the podling. Perhaps I do not understand when the concept of
binding vote applies, but the only reference on the incubator web page
on the PPMC is in the section on voting for new committers and it says
that this only applies to the vote for new committers.
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#Voting+in+a+new+committer

Can you clarify the rules here?

Thanks
Alasdair

2009/10/16 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>:

> Awesome, thx a lot.
> I think one thing that may help would be to add a column and list
> people that are members of the Incubator PMC.  Those are really the
> ones that have binding votes while Aries is incubating.  This can be
> done by looking at http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html or
> the list of members from the IPMC:
>
> incubator-pmc=aadamchik,aaron,adc,akarasulu,antelder,antoine,ate,bdelacretaz,ben,berndf,blautenb,bloritsch,bodewig,brett,brianm,bsnyder,carnold,chinthaka,cliffs,clr,coar,craigmcc,crossley,cutting,cziegeler,danese,dashorst,davidw,deepal,dims,dirkx,dkulp,ekoneil,elecharny,erikabele,farra,fitz,geirm,gianugo,gmcdonald,gnodet,gsingers,gstein,hammant,henning,hogstrom,husted,ianh,jeremias,jerenkrantz,jgenender,jholmes,jim,joes,jstrachan,jta,jukka,jvanzyl,kevan,leosimons,lresende,martinc,matzew,morgand,mrdon,mriou,mvdb,mwomack,niallp,niclas,noel,pquerna,proyal,psteitz,pzf,rdonkin,reinhard,rgardler,rgoers,rhillegas,rolandw,rooneg,rubys,sanjiva,sbailliez,sgala,snoopdave,stoddard,susie,sylvain,tcurdt,tfischer,twl,upayavira,wglass,wrowe,wsmoak,yoavs
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:40, Alasdair Nottingham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
>> the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
>> think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
>> some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
>> and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.
>>
>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People
>>
>> Alasdair
>>
>> --
>> Alasdair Nottingham
>> [hidden email]
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>



--
Alasdair Nottingham
[hidden email]
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Re: People page for aries

Guillaume Nodet
My understanding is that any vote that has an effect on the ASF needs
three binding (i.e. IPMC binding) votes.  This would include voting in
new committers and voting on releases (see
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html#release-distribution).
 I think everything else which is specific to the podling can be
handled by the PPMC itself.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:52, Alasdair Nottingham
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'll try to fold that in, but I doubt I'll get it done today.
>
> I know I am new to working on an apache project but I am a little
> surprised to learn that only Incubator PMC members have binding votes
> on the podling. Perhaps I do not understand when the concept of
> binding vote applies, but the only reference on the incubator web page
> on the PPMC is in the section on voting for new committers and it says
> that this only applies to the vote for new committers.
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#Voting+in+a+new+committer
>
> Can you clarify the rules here?
>
> Thanks
> Alasdair
>
> 2009/10/16 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>:
>> Awesome, thx a lot.
>> I think one thing that may help would be to add a column and list
>> people that are members of the Incubator PMC.  Those are really the
>> ones that have binding votes while Aries is incubating.  This can be
>> done by looking at http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html or
>> the list of members from the IPMC:
>>
>> incubator-pmc=aadamchik,aaron,adc,akarasulu,antelder,antoine,ate,bdelacretaz,ben,berndf,blautenb,bloritsch,bodewig,brett,brianm,bsnyder,carnold,chinthaka,cliffs,clr,coar,craigmcc,crossley,cutting,cziegeler,danese,dashorst,davidw,deepal,dims,dirkx,dkulp,ekoneil,elecharny,erikabele,farra,fitz,geirm,gianugo,gmcdonald,gnodet,gsingers,gstein,hammant,henning,hogstrom,husted,ianh,jeremias,jerenkrantz,jgenender,jholmes,jim,joes,jstrachan,jta,jukka,jvanzyl,kevan,leosimons,lresende,martinc,matzew,morgand,mrdon,mriou,mvdb,mwomack,niallp,niclas,noel,pquerna,proyal,psteitz,pzf,rdonkin,reinhard,rgardler,rgoers,rhillegas,rolandw,rooneg,rubys,sanjiva,sbailliez,sgala,snoopdave,stoddard,susie,sylvain,tcurdt,tfischer,twl,upayavira,wglass,wrowe,wsmoak,yoavs
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:40, Alasdair Nottingham
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
>>> the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
>>> think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
>>> some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
>>> and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.
>>>
>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People
>>>
>>> Alasdair
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alasdair Nottingham
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alasdair Nottingham
> [hidden email]
>



--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
That fits with what I read too. I'll update the page with ipmc membership.

Out of interest what happens if you have an ipmc member who is a
committer, but not a ppmc member?

Thanks
Alasdair

On Friday, October 16, 2009, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My understanding is that any vote that has an effect on the ASF needs
> three binding (i.e. IPMC binding) votes.  This would include voting in
> new committers and voting on releases (see
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html#release-distribution).
>  I think everything else which is specific to the podling can be
> handled by the PPMC itself.
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:52, Alasdair Nottingham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'll try to fold that in, but I doubt I'll get it done today.
>>
>> I know I am new to working on an apache project but I am a little
>> surprised to learn that only Incubator PMC members have binding votes
>> on the podling. Perhaps I do not understand when the concept of
>> binding vote applies, but the only reference on the incubator web page
>> on the PPMC is in the section on voting for new committers and it says
>> that this only applies to the vote for new committers.
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#Voting+in+a+new+committer
>>
>> Can you clarify the rules here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Alasdair
>>
>> 2009/10/16 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>:
>>> Awesome, thx a lot.
>>> I think one thing that may help would be to add a column and list
>>> people that are members of the Incubator PMC.  Those are really the
>>> ones that have binding votes while Aries is incubating.  This can be
>>> done by looking at http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html or
>>> the list of members from the IPMC:
>>>
>>> incubator-pmc=aadamchik,aaron,adc,akarasulu,antelder,antoine,ate,bdelacretaz,ben,berndf,blautenb,bloritsch,bodewig,brett,brianm,bsnyder,carnold,chinthaka,cliffs,clr,coar,craigmcc,crossley,cutting,cziegeler,danese,dashorst,davidw,deepal,dims,dirkx,dkulp,ekoneil,elecharny,erikabele,farra,fitz,geirm,gianugo,gmcdonald,gnodet,gsingers,gstein,hammant,henning,hogstrom,husted,ianh,jeremias,jerenkrantz,jgenender,jholmes,jim,joes,jstrachan,jta,jukka,jvanzyl,kevan,leosimons,lresende,martinc,matzew,morgand,mrdon,mriou,mvdb,mwomack,niallp,niclas,noel,pquerna,proyal,psteitz,pzf,rdonkin,reinhard,rgardler,rgoers,rhillegas,rolandw,rooneg,rubys,sanjiva,sbailliez,sgala,snoopdave,stoddard,susie,sylvain,tcurdt,tfischer,twl,upayavira,wglass,wrowe,wsmoak,yoavs
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:40, Alasdair Nottingham
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
>>>> the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
>>>> think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
>>>> some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
>>>> and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.
>>>>
>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People
>>>>
>>>> Alasdair
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alasdair Nottingham
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>> ------------------------
>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>> ------------------------
>>> Open Source SOA
>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alasdair Nottingham
>> [hidden email]
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>

--
Alasdair Nottingham
[hidden email]
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Re: People page for aries

Daniel  Kulp
In reply to this post by Alasdair Nottingham

Basically, the PPMC is not an officially recognized entity.   It's not
mentioned in the Apache charter.   They are not board committees.   Etc...  
Thus, they have no "legal" standing in the foundation and thus don't have any
binding say in any legal matters.

The Incubator PMC IS a legal entity and does have binding votes.    The most
common votes that this comes up is adding a committer (that requires granting
access to Apache resources, a legal matter) and releasing software (a release
is an official release and needs legal votes).    Adding a PMC (note: PMC, not
PPMC) is another.  

Anyway, the "PPMC" really is just an incubator thing to help the podling learn
about Apache processes and such.   Once the project graduates, it will have a
real PMC, so they need to learn to act like one and everything that entails
while in the incubator.  However, until they graduate, the votes aren't really
"binding" for official purposes.   You still need binding IPMC votes for
official things.

A Guillaume mentioned, having the list of IPMC members on your list will help
tally the binding votes when we try to do something official, like releasing
software and adding committers.

Basically, somewhere along the line, Lawyers got involved and all hell broke
loose.   :-)

Dan



On Fri October 16 2009 8:52:27 am Alasdair Nottingham wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'll try to fold that in, but I doubt I'll get it done today.
>
> I know I am new to working on an apache project but I am a little
> surprised to learn that only Incubator PMC members have binding votes
> on the podling. Perhaps I do not understand when the concept of
> binding vote applies, but the only reference on the incubator web page
> on the PPMC is in the section on voting for new committers and it says
> that this only applies to the vote for new committers.
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#Voting+in+a+new+committer
>
> Can you clarify the rules here?
>
> Thanks
> Alasdair
>
> 2009/10/16 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>:
> > Awesome, thx a lot.
> > I think one thing that may help would be to add a column and list
> > people that are members of the Incubator PMC.  Those are really the
> > ones that have binding votes while Aries is incubating.  This can be
> > done by looking at http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html or
> > the list of members from the IPMC:
> >
> > incubator-pmc=aadamchik,aaron,adc,akarasulu,antelder,antoine,ate,bdelacre
> >taz,ben,berndf,blautenb,bloritsch,bodewig,brett,brianm,bsnyder,carnold,chi
> >nthaka,cliffs,clr,coar,craigmcc,crossley,cutting,cziegeler,danese,dashorst
> >,davidw,deepal,dims,dirkx,dkulp,ekoneil,elecharny,erikabele,farra,fitz,gei
> >rm,gianugo,gmcdonald,gnodet,gsingers,gstein,hammant,henning,hogstrom,huste
> >d,ianh,jeremias,jerenkrantz,jgenender,jholmes,jim,joes,jstrachan,jta,jukka
> >,jvanzyl,kevan,leosimons,lresende,martinc,matzew,morgand,mrdon,mriou,mvdb,
> >mwomack,niallp,niclas,noel,pquerna,proyal,psteitz,pzf,rdonkin,reinhard,rga
> >rdler,rgoers,rhillegas,rolandw,rooneg,rubys,sanjiva,sbailliez,sgala,snoopd
> >ave,stoddard,susie,sylvain,tcurdt,tfischer,twl,upayavira,wglass,wrowe,wsmo
> >ak,yoavs
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 14:40, Alasdair Nottingham
> >
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> In order to help with the tabulating votes I have created a page for
> >> the website that details who people are and what their roles are. I
> >> think I have the information down correctly, but I may have missed
> >> some people off. I generated it using the podling vote result thread
> >> and the emails I have seen voting additional committers in.
> >>
> >> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ARIES/People
> >>
> >> Alasdair
> >>
> >> --
> >> Alasdair Nottingham
> >> [hidden email]
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Guillaume Nodet
> > ------------------------
> > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > ------------------------
> > Open Source SOA
> > http://fusesource.com
>

--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email]
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
Hi,

Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
operate like this:

Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
PPMC learning how to run a project.

When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
(this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
as per the process.

When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
for voting in a new committer.

I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
interpretation I have come up with.

What do people think?
Thanks
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Fwd: People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
In reply to this post by Daniel Kulp
Hi,

Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
operate like this:

Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
PPMC learning how to run a project.

When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
(this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
as per the process.

When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
for voting in a new committer.

I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
interpretation I have come up with.

What do people think?
Thanks
Alasdair

--
Alasdair Nottingham
[hidden email]
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Re: Fwd: People page for aries

Davanum Srinivas
Alasdair,

3 IPMC votes for a release is non-negotiable legally. Please raise it in general@incubator if you still wish to pursue
since this is a common policy to all incubator projects.

thanks,
dims

On 10/23/2009 10:10 AM, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
> all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
> attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
> operate like this:
>
> Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
> making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
> legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
> binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
> of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
> guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
> PPMC learning how to run a project.
>
> When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
> members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
> responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
> recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
> (this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
> the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
> the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
> less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
> as per the process.
>
> When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
> for voting in a new committer.
>
> I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
> interpretation I have come up with.
>
> What do people think?
> Thanks
> Alasdair
>
> --
> Alasdair Nottingham
> [hidden email]

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Re: People page for aries

Jeremy Hughes
In reply to this post by Alasdair Nottingham
2009/10/23 Alasdair Nottingham <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
> all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
> attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
> operate like this:
>
> Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
> making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
> legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
> binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
> of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
> guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
> PPMC learning how to run a project.

That's been my understanding in seeing incubating projects go by over
the years, but I'm not an IPMC member. A useful example that involves
binding votes that doesn't require IPMC voting is when in the R-T-C
(review then commit) mode in SVN which typically operates when someone
has developed some code in a branch and now wants to merge that with
the trunk. A vote is called for the branch to me merged and the
binding votes are the people on the PPMC and this vote doesn't need
IPMC members (although in our case since we have a good number of IPMC
members we'll probably get those votes anyway :-)

>
> When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
> members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
> responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
> recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
> (this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
> the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote

and those IPMC member votes are positive (sorry being picky)

> then it goes to
> the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
> less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
> as per the process.
>
> When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
> for voting in a new committer.
>
> I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
> interpretation I have come up with.
>
> What do people think?

I think this is good and should be more explicit in the Incubator
guidelines ... perhaps take up the discussion on general@

Cheers,
Jeremy
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Re: Fwd: People page for aries

Alasdair Nottingham
In reply to this post by Davanum Srinivas
Hi,

You are right, I was getting a bit lazy at that point.

What I was trying to get at was that if I read the letter of the
guide, rather than what I think the intent is, then if 3 IPMC members
vote +1 then a committer or release goes out, even if a majority of
PPMC members votes -1. I was trying to clarify that in addition to 3
IPMC member votes you also need agreement from a majority of the PPMC
member votes.

Alasdair

2009/10/23 Davanum Srinivas <[hidden email]>:

> Alasdair,
>
> 3 IPMC votes for a release is non-negotiable legally. Please raise it in
> general@incubator if you still wish to pursue since this is a common policy
> to all incubator projects.
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
> On 10/23/2009 10:10 AM, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
>> all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
>> attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
>> operate like this:
>>
>> Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
>> making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
>> legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
>> binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
>> of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
>> guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
>> PPMC learning how to run a project.
>>
>> When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
>> members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
>> responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
>> recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
>> (this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
>> the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
>> the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
>> less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
>> as per the process.
>>
>> When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
>> for voting in a new committer.
>>
>> I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
>> interpretation I have come up with.
>>
>> What do people think?
>> Thanks
>> Alasdair
>>
>> --
>> Alasdair Nottingham
>> [hidden email]
>
>



--
Alasdair Nottingham
[hidden email]
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Re: Fwd: People page for aries

Guillaume Nodet
If this ever happen, that would surely indicate a real problem ...
I guess that would still fit the rules though.
FWIW, a release can not be veoted, which means even in a (non podling)
PMC, if you have 3 +1 votes for a release with 10 -1 votes, the
release can still go out if the release manager decides so.   But as i
said, this would indicate a real issue in the community imho.

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 17:13, Alasdair Nottingham
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You are right, I was getting a bit lazy at that point.
>
> What I was trying to get at was that if I read the letter of the
> guide, rather than what I think the intent is, then if 3 IPMC members
> vote +1 then a committer or release goes out, even if a majority of
> PPMC members votes -1. I was trying to clarify that in addition to 3
> IPMC member votes you also need agreement from a majority of the PPMC
> member votes.
>
> Alasdair
>
> 2009/10/23 Davanum Srinivas <[hidden email]>:
>> Alasdair,
>>
>> 3 IPMC votes for a release is non-negotiable legally. Please raise it in
>> general@incubator if you still wish to pursue since this is a common policy
>> to all incubator projects.
>>
>> thanks,
>> dims
>>
>> On 10/23/2009 10:10 AM, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
>>> all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
>>> attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
>>> operate like this:
>>>
>>> Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
>>> making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
>>> legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
>>> binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
>>> of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
>>> guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
>>> PPMC learning how to run a project.
>>>
>>> When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
>>> members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
>>> responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
>>> recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
>>> (this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
>>> the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
>>> the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
>>> less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
>>> as per the process.
>>>
>>> When it comes to voting for a release I the same rules should apply as
>>> for voting in a new committer.
>>>
>>> I have tried to interpret the rules, but this is the best
>>> interpretation I have come up with.
>>>
>>> What do people think?
>>> Thanks
>>> Alasdair
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alasdair Nottingham
>>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alasdair Nottingham
> [hidden email]
>



--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: People page for aries

kevan
In reply to this post by Alasdair Nottingham

On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get my head around
> all this. Based on the guidelines, what has been said here and an
> attempt to read between the lines I think the idea is that things
> operate like this:
>
> Voting is important both in podlings and in top level projects. When
> making decisions about how the podling should operate that do not have
> legal implications any vote by any member of the PPMC is considered
> binding in making decisions. This allows the PPMC to learn the process
> of managing the podling. While this is not explicitly covered in the
> guides it seems logical to me, and consistent with the goal of the
> PPMC learning how to run a project.

Between http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Podling+Constraints 
  and http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#Voting+in+a+new+committer 
  I think this is reasonably well covered. There's always room for  
improvement, but I don't see a major issue, either...

In general terms, there are two phases to a PPMC vote that has ASF  
implications (e.g. releases, committer membership, and PPMC  
membership): 1) PPMC vote, followed by (assuming the vote is  
successful) 2) Approval by the IPMC. The IPMC vote is legally binding  
to the ASF. However, in normal process, an IPMC vote/approval would  
always be preceded by a successful PPMC vote.

>
> When it comes to voting in a new committer I think that while the IPMC
> members votes are binding the guidelines say that the PPMC is
> responsible for recommending new committers. To gain such a
> recommendation a vote is held and the PPMC members votes are binding
> (this is not sufficient for committer access to be granted though). If
> the decision is to recommend and 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to
> the IPMC for silent consensus. If the decision is to recommend and
> less than 3 IPMC members vote then it goes to the IPMC for a full vote
> as per the process.

PPMC votes are binding within the podling. IPMC votes do not count  
differently within the podling. They are only significant in that they  
can also be applied to the IPMC vote/approval. It's helpful to have 3  
IPMC +1's in a PPMC vote -- if there are, then no more IPMC votes are  
required for IPMC approval. IPMC approval can then be a simple matter  
of 72 hour lazy concensus.

--kevan
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Re: People page for aries

kevan
In reply to this post by Alasdair Nottingham

On Oct 23, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You are right, I was getting a bit lazy at that point.
>
> What I was trying to get at was that if I read the letter of the
> guide, rather than what I think the intent is, then if 3 IPMC members
> vote +1 then a committer or release goes out, even if a majority of
> PPMC members votes -1. I was trying to clarify that in addition to 3
> IPMC member votes you also need agreement from a majority of the PPMC
> member votes.

I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from... Anyway, there's  
also http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html#best-practice-incubator-release-vote

--kevan