[VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

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[VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

zoe slattery
Hi all

This vote has now run for (slightly over) 72 hours and is now closed.

Counting the results gives:

Total + votes = 6, that is 6 in favour of using the Blogger
Total - votes = 6 , that is, 6 in favour of using Roller

There are however two +0 votes which if added in tip the vote slightly
in favour of Blogger. It looks as though these can be counted as
legitimate votes http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html.


There has been some good discussion on this point and I think the
outcome of the vote is indicative of the fact that there are good points
on both sides. At this point I think it's time to close the discussion
down and move on - I'd like to do this today.

Is it right to assume that, on the basis  of the vote, we should use
Blogger?.

Zoe
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Stuart McCulloch
2009/10/16 zoe <[hidden email]>

> Hi all
>
> This vote has now run for (slightly over) 72 hours and is now closed.
>
> Counting the results gives:
>
> Total + votes = 6, that is 6 in favour of using the Blogger
> Total - votes = 6 , that is, 6 in favour of using Roller
>

for those interested, the exact list of votes was:

  +1 x 5
  Alasdair Nottingham, Graham Charters, Zoe Slattery, Rick McGuire, Jeremy
Hughes

  +0.5 x 2
  Stuart McCulloch, Raymond Feng

  +0 x 2
  Guillaume Nodet, David Bosschaert

  -1 x 6
  Bertrand Delacretaz, Daniel Kulp, Kevan Miller, Davanum Srinivas, Alan
Cabrera, Niklas Gustavsson

--
Cheers, Stuart


> There are however two +0 votes which if added in tip the vote slightly in
> favour of Blogger. It looks as though these can be counted as legitimate
> votes http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html.
>
>
> There has been some good discussion on this point and I think the outcome
> of the vote is indicative of the fact that there are good points on both
> sides. At this point I think it's time to close the discussion down and move
> on - I'd like to do this today.
>
> Is it right to assume that, on the basis  of the vote, we should use
> Blogger?.
>
> Zoe
>
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Niclas Hedhman
In reply to this post by zoe slattery
Well, in Apache terms it would be "consensus has not been reached"...
For any relevant vote, which is Yes/No, this vote would fail ("more
positive than negative"), but it is not a Yes/No vote, and hence the
outcome is "undetermined" in my opinion.

I have not voted on the basis that;

 a. Bike Shedding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
 b. Not sure if the content needs long term preservation or not.
 c. Why does people even argue over it?

Solution? Do both? Does it matter?


Cheers

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:11 PM, zoe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> This vote has now run for (slightly over) 72 hours and is now closed.
>
> Counting the results gives:
>
> Total + votes = 6, that is 6 in favour of using the Blogger
> Total - votes = 6 , that is, 6 in favour of using Roller
>
> There are however two +0 votes which if added in tip the vote slightly in
> favour of Blogger. It looks as though these can be counted as legitimate
> votes http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html.
>
>
> There has been some good discussion on this point and I think the outcome of
> the vote is indicative of the fact that there are good points on both sides.
> At this point I think it's time to close the discussion down and move on -
> I'd like to do this today.
>
> Is it right to assume that, on the basis  of the vote, we should use
> Blogger?.
>
> Zoe
>



--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Jeremy Hughes
2009/10/16 Niclas Hedhman <[hidden email]>:
> Well, in Apache terms it would be "consensus has not been reached"...
> For any relevant vote, which is Yes/No, this vote would fail ("more
> positive than negative"), but it is not a Yes/No vote, and hence the
> outcome is "undetermined" in my opinion.
>
> I have not voted on the basis that;
>
>  a. Bike Shedding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality

Not seen that before. I agree it would seem that applies here.

>  b. Not sure if the content needs long term preservation or not.

Would be nice but not essential as anything that is crucial
documentation should be moved over to the project doc.

>  c. Why does people even argue over it?
>
> Solution? Do both? Does it matter?

Agreed, in hindsight, IMHO a vote probably wasn't needed because we
can just do both.

Jeremy
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Davanum Srinivas
It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
listening to their mentors :)

-- dims

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Jeremy Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/10/16 Niclas Hedhman <[hidden email]>:
>> Well, in Apache terms it would be "consensus has not been reached"...
>> For any relevant vote, which is Yes/No, this vote would fail ("more
>> positive than negative"), but it is not a Yes/No vote, and hence the
>> outcome is "undetermined" in my opinion.
>>
>> I have not voted on the basis that;
>>
>>  a. Bike Shedding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
>
> Not seen that before. I agree it would seem that applies here.
>
>>  b. Not sure if the content needs long term preservation or not.
>
> Would be nice but not essential as anything that is crucial
> documentation should be moved over to the project doc.
>
>>  c. Why does people even argue over it?
>>
>> Solution? Do both? Does it matter?
>
> Agreed, in hindsight, IMHO a vote probably wasn't needed because we
> can just do both.
>
> Jeremy
>



--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Daniel  Kulp
On Fri October 16 2009 6:18:55 am Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
> listening to their mentors :)

Yea.  No kidding.   If you look at just the IPMC binding votes, you get:

  +1  - none

  +0  - Guillaume Nodet

  -1 x 5  -  Bertrand Delacretaz, Daniel Kulp, Kevan Miller, Davanum Srinivas,
Alan Cabrera


That's pretty one sided. If you ask me, it says something about how well
people are grasping (or not) the Apache community aspects of things.

Little red flags start popping up....  not good.....  

Dan



>
> -- dims
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Jeremy Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > 2009/10/16 Niclas Hedhman <[hidden email]>:
> >> Well, in Apache terms it would be "consensus has not been reached"...
> >> For any relevant vote, which is Yes/No, this vote would fail ("more
> >> positive than negative"), but it is not a Yes/No vote, and hence the
> >> outcome is "undetermined" in my opinion.
> >>
> >> I have not voted on the basis that;
> >>
> >>  a. Bike Shedding,
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
> >
> > Not seen that before. I agree it would seem that applies here.
> >
> >>  b. Not sure if the content needs long term preservation or not.
> >
> > Would be nice but not essential as anything that is crucial
> > documentation should be moved over to the project doc.
> >
> >>  c. Why does people even argue over it?
> >>
> >> Solution? Do both? Does it matter?
> >
> > Agreed, in hindsight, IMHO a vote probably wasn't needed because we
> > can just do both.
> >
> > Jeremy
>

--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email]
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

zoe slattery
In reply to this post by Davanum Srinivas
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
> listening to their mentors :)
>
>  
I'd like to think we are listening but that doesn't mean that we can't
express a different point of view does it? As I said, I really think we
have spent too much time on this and would like to move on.

Those of us that argued against Roller have done so on the basis of ease
of use of Blogger. What if we start a Roller blog and if, after some
period, we can demonstrate that lack of function/usability is making it
difficult for contributors then we agree to move to Blogger? Would the
mentors be happy with that solution?

Zoe

>
>  

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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Stuart McCulloch
2009/10/16 zoe <[hidden email]>

> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
>> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
>> listening to their mentors :)
>>
>
if the 'right' answer is that blogs should be hosted at blogs.apache.org
then is it worth documenting this somewhere on the incubator FAQ ?


>
>>
> I'd like to think we are listening but that doesn't mean that we can't
> express a different point of view does it? As I said, I really think we have
> spent too much time on this and would like to move on.
>
> Those of us that argued against Roller have done so on the basis of ease of
> use of Blogger. What if we start a Roller blog and if, after some period, we
> can demonstrate that lack of function/usability is making it difficult for
> contributors then we agree to move to Blogger? Would the mentors be happy
> with that solution?
>

agree, lets follow Niclas' suggestion and get on with providing content
and building community - lets start the Aries blog at blogs.apache.org
and see how that goes (ironically I can't find the link that says how to
request a new blog at apache - anyone have any pointers?)

Zoe
>

--
Cheers, Stuart
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Guillaume Nodet
In reply to this post by Daniel Kulp
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 15:43, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri October 16 2009 6:18:55 am Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
>> listening to their mentors :)
>
> Yea.  No kidding.   If you look at just the IPMC binding votes, you get:

I strongly disagree with this view that in this vote IPMC votes are
more binding than PPMC votes.
As i just replied on the other thread, IPMC votes are the only binding
votes when the ASF is at sake (because the podling is adding a new
committer, doing a release or such).  I don't think this is the case
here.

>  +1  - none
>
>  +0  - Guillaume Nodet
>
>  -1 x 5  -  Bertrand Delacretaz, Daniel Kulp, Kevan Miller, Davanum Srinivas,
> Alan Cabrera
>
>
> That's pretty one sided. If you ask me, it says something about how well
> people are grasping (or not) the Apache community aspects of things.

Don't be pushy and ignore the other votes.  Even if those were not
bindings, there's a large portion of people having voted +1 and
ignoring those is just bad and does not show much respect for them.

> Little red flags start popping up....  not good.....
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>>
>> -- dims
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Jeremy Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > 2009/10/16 Niclas Hedhman <[hidden email]>:
>> >> Well, in Apache terms it would be "consensus has not been reached"...
>> >> For any relevant vote, which is Yes/No, this vote would fail ("more
>> >> positive than negative"), but it is not a Yes/No vote, and hence the
>> >> outcome is "undetermined" in my opinion.
>> >>
>> >> I have not voted on the basis that;
>> >>
>> >>  a. Bike Shedding,
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
>> >
>> > Not seen that before. I agree it would seem that applies here.
>> >
>> >>  b. Not sure if the content needs long term preservation or not.
>> >
>> > Would be nice but not essential as anything that is crucial
>> > documentation should be moved over to the project doc.
>> >
>> >>  c. Why does people even argue over it?
>> >>
>> >> Solution? Do both? Does it matter?
>> >
>> > Agreed, in hindsight, IMHO a vote probably wasn't needed because we
>> > can just do both.
>> >
>> > Jeremy
>>
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> [hidden email]
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>



--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

Davanum Srinivas
In reply to this post by zoe slattery
+1 from me! Sounds like plan

On 10/16/2009 10:11 AM, zoe wrote:

> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
>> listening to their mentors :)
>>
> I'd like to think we are listening but that doesn't mean that we can't
> express a different point of view does it? As I said, I really think we
> have spent too much time on this and would like to move on.
>
> Those of us that argued against Roller have done so on the basis of ease
> of use of Blogger. What if we start a Roller blog and if, after some
> period, we can demonstrate that lack of function/usability is making it
> difficult for contributors then we agree to move to Blogger? Would the
> mentors be happy with that solution?
>
> Zoe
>
>>
>

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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

kevan
In reply to this post by zoe slattery

On Oct 16, 2009, at 10:11 AM, zoe wrote:

> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> It does give one data point though for me. how well folks are
>> listening to their mentors :)
>>
>>
> I'd like to think we are listening but that doesn't mean that we  
> can't express a different point of view does it? As I said, I really  
> think we have spent too much time on this and would like to move on.

Agreed. Personally, I think the voting is divided into two camps:

1) The people who will be doing most of the blogging, and
2) The people who are thinking about this from an Apache Branding,  
angle...

I'd prefer to see Aries benefiting from a closer association with  
"Apache" via blogs.apache.org. I'd prefer to see Apache benefitting  
from Aries utilization of blogs.apache.org. However, I must confess  
that I'm probably not going to be contributing very much blog content.  
So, it's pretty easy for me to have this perspective...

> Those of us that argued against Roller have done so on the basis of  
> ease of use of Blogger. What if we start a Roller blog and if, after  
> some period, we can demonstrate that lack of function/usability is  
> making it difficult for contributors then we agree to move to  
> Blogger? Would the mentors be happy with that solution?

Yes. Fine with me. However, if we're finding that the Apache Blogging  
infrastructure is particularly constraining, I'd also like to  
understand the issues and at least make sure that the issues are  
described to the Infra team -- and even better if people see what can  
be done to help improve things...

--kevan
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Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Use Blogger to host Aries project blog

kevan
In reply to this post by zoe slattery

On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:11 AM, zoe wrote:

> Hi all
>
> This vote has now run for (slightly over) 72 hours and is now closed.
>
> Counting the results gives:
>
> Total + votes = 6, that is 6 in favour of using the Blogger
> Total - votes = 6 , that is, 6 in favour of using Roller
>
> There are however two +0 votes which if added in tip the vote  
> slightly in favour of Blogger. It looks as though these can be  
> counted as legitimate votes http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html 
> .

Well, if you reach the point of splitting hairs over the meaning of +0  
votes, that's not very ideal... Some observations...

Sometimes a VOTE is necessary to resolve a difference of opinion  
within a community. However, it's usually much better to arrive at  
some form of consensus via discussion.

Consensus helps build community. Consensus builds "us". Most votes (if  
a vote is even necessary) should hopefully establish a clear majority.  
Sometimes a consensus can't be reached and vote is necessary. However,  
be aware that votes can divide a community. Or get you into sticky  
situations trying to interpret +0 votes... ;-)

--kevan